from the comments . . .

I'm tired & busy, & the following conversation didn't get the love it deserved down in the comments.

Big ups to Noah for starting it & to David (former student) & The Fox (wife) for great truth-related argumentation.

Scroll to the bottom for today's music, which was--on the day we begin Antigone, the band Antigone Rising.

See what I did there? 

Pretty, pretty, pretty good.

Noah Angel said...

First of all, I cannot be honest with myself, him I trust least of all; if I learn my greatest weaknesses I shall exploit them to destroy myself (yes, this paranoia is boredom-induced, but no less valid because of it).

Paranoia and slight insanity aside, I thought the article was hilarious, but see Blanton as a bit arbitrary, trying to dictate how or when we should lie. I do not see it as black and white, and honestly do not know where I will draw the line, as I have yet to really encounter it. Yes, I lie, but I consider myself a somewhat honest person (as far as us "yahoos" go anyways...) and I guess what it boils down to is what one considers honesty is, be it religiously inspired, personally inspired, modeled after an admired figure, etc.

Also, I think this pretty much encapsulates yours and Rubel's classes: http://www.cafepress.com/+theres_no_crying_english_class_decal_sticker,260551344

Well, back to my Swiftian-styled Socratic questions... See ya, McBride!

fox said...

Your post reminded me of when we watched 'the Invention of Lying" and although I enjoyed the movie, I couldn't figure out why not being able to lie meant that people had no ability to filter what they said. Although, again, a wise guy once told me that withholding the truth was essentially lying.

Does honesty come from intention? Does the meaning behind the lie matter, to where it can be justified?

I know a LOT of people who lie on a regular basis. A few -- odd ones at that-- lie simply to better themselves. Perhaps delusional, but they don't lie out of being malicious, however these fibs are pretty easily disproved. Others lie simply to stir stuff up, to cause ruckus and dismay, but maybe these people are clinically mentally ill, or just jerkheads. People tell lies to spare feelings, to build up esteem, to soften the emotional blows of life.

I think most relationships would completely fail if honesty were used in an unpolished, blunt manner. Because most people can't listen to complaint without taking some sort of offense.

I'm an honest person, but like most people, I struggle in being honest with myself, because I don't always like what I have to say to myself. Or hear. Depends on which myself I mean. And I absolutely get miffed when someone is completely honest with me, and it's something I don't particularly like the sound of.

Michael said...

To fox:

To paraphrase, you stated that you thought that most relationships would fail if people were always honest to each other, (blunt, unpolished)

I would argue that if this “”relationship” is built on people lying to each other, only showing their good sides, building each other up on lies to boost esteem, telling lies to get someone ot appreciate you,

I wouldn’t call that a relationship, I’d call that a nice big plate of lies that smile at each other.

I’d argue that unless you are being honest with others, then you won’t actually build any real relationships.

Also, if a relationship is killed over one person one time possibly insinuating that maybe so-and-so doesn’t look nice in their new dress, then the individuals involved should reconsider their lifestyles, if they mean that much to themselves.

Forgive and forget people? Its called showing grace.

Now, I understand that you were referring to the use of blunt honesty, and I’d say that that is where courtesy comes in.

You don’t have to say, “Wow, yah you’re fat, nuff said”.

There are other ways to say something.

Think on it….

To people in general.

I think that Mr. Kelley summed this up well. “The key to being honest is to live a life you don’t have to lie about” (Kelley, APUSH).

Honestly (heh, irony?) I live life in all honesty. This helps because I am not asked pointed questions a lot, and if I am backed into a corner, remember that there is a reason for the fifth amendment! Its there, plead it.

As for lying to myself, I gave that up when the other voices came in. I had a hard time moving Bob, and he didn’t want to leave his bed, said he had been there first, but the others wanted to stay too. Believe me, it gets irritating having to listen to them while trying to do a timed writing assignment. But, I digress. (yay, I used the word digress)

I’d say that in a world where people are so unstable in their self-image, where everyone is trying to make themselves a path, and their only foundation is themselves, that radical honesty will offend a lot of people, because they perceive anything that isn’t boosting them as a possible attack to their ego, which is all they have to live for.

Good luck to all.

(I personally only lie when people ask me how I’m doing.)

--Dave

(I tell them I’m okay.)

fox said...

Ah ha, to Michael . . . excellent point about the "plate of lies" -- as a sometimes cook, I like the illusion.

However, take into account the lies that start the entire courting process. Let's start with the physical lies.

* Take note, please, I am speaking in general terms only, I'm not saying every person in current existence has done this *

Women, in particular, spend an awful lot of time making themselves look like someone else in order to impress. They lie about the color of the skin on their face, how short and sparse their eyelashes are, how frizzy or thin or dull their hair is. Men and women might lie about their height by wearing high shoes, and attempt many means to hide their true weight. Heck, both will even lie about the way they smell. And both sides usually like to be lied to here, it makes them feel appreciated.

Eventually when, or if, the relationship gets to the point where they aren't afraid to show their true face ( literally ) , or smell ( eeeeew) they have already learned who they are in the relationship and it's ok. When you truly love someone, you see them for who they really are . . . faults included, blemishes and all. All those fabrications, are just part of the memories.

People might hide the fact they are a slob, that they hate dogs, that they can't stand your best friend. They might hide that they can't comprehend British humor or Japanese art. They might fail to mention they hate your haircut, or they think that you aren't quite as talented dancer as you'd like to believe you are. These things usually don't affect the relationship, they usually only come to light when the ship is sinking and everything is getting tossed overboard out of frustration and desperation. These aren't the fibs that destroy a relationship. These are the fears we want to hide about ourselves because we don't have the confidence to share them.

They might lie by trying to get more knowledgeable about a subject that interests the other. If they were honest with themselves and the other person, they would say " I don't care, it doesn't interest me," but people function in a relationship by considering the other person's feelings. Instead they tell themselves "Sure, I'll do it for him/her because it's important to them."

While flat out deception is never acceptable in any relationship, I can't imagine a scenario where two people could be absolutely honest every moment because we as humans, are built to take offense and often be hurt by the truth.

Now, you can take this further into a whole other topic of the whole society has molded us to believe what's not real ( Hollywood-type things, the morbid grotesque fascination with what is a blown up lie ) and that no one knows how to tell the truth, because no one knows what the truth is . . . which could go into how technology has ruined the human ability to communicate intimately, but again . . .

but I don't feel like going there, mostly cause I've been yammering too much

Anyway, long ago I told our kids that you shouldn't ever say something about someone or something that you wouldn't be willing to 'fess up to.

I still believe that, and as I get older, I am trying to do that more myself, and teach other people I know --who really would simplify their lives by doing so-- to do the same. And I love your wording of 'grace' with forgiving and forgetting, because I agree, and I've been trying to get some people I know to do that for years, but my honesty caused them to shut me out of their lives.

Oh, and when my voices start yammering, I tell them to shut up because I don't want to hear it. Ok, that's one time where the blunt honesty totally works.

Michael said...

To fox:

That was exceptionally thought out and phrased, and your argument regarding the small “details” in a relationship that eventually come to light being insignificant, and I agree. (awkward phrasing there, sorry)

As for humans, I agree that the “natural” response is to take offense, or to feel hurt. I can sympathize in fact. But I would again say that in most instances, it is a choice to get worked up, or rather, to take it personally. People need to be willing to accept themselves for what they are, and not what they want to be. They may not be the most beautiful person on earth; they could have what they see as flaws. That’s okay! Its part of what makes you you. If everyone was beautiful, then no one would be. If all the characters in a book were stereotypical, then every story would seem the same (actually, most stories do that nowadays)

But, as I mentioned earlier, I agree with all that you have stated.

My foundational reasoning behind what I was saying was honesty in a totally exaggerated aspect, in regards to the discussions in class/handout. (Although, I’m recalling from a year ago, so it could have changed a bit)

I understand that complete honesty in every area of life with every person is not practical, and will probably shorten ones lifespan by ten years.

However, I would say that my main point is that people are making too much of themselves, and that there is a lot to be said for forgiving each other over conceived “ego bombings”.

Again though, I enjoyed reading your examples, and your well thought out argument. It’s a nice change from the average conversations at a high school lunch break.

(Oh, and i only listen to my voices when i have no one else to talk to, they have interesting views on things. Currently, they are arguing over the simularities between dark matter, and my socks =/)

--Dave

fox said...

Dave,

"If everyone was beautiful, no one would be"

Love it!

And about forgiving each other & "ego-bombings" . . .

Let's just say that if I were related to you instead of some of the people I share blood with, my life would be so much more pleasant. Heck, the world would be a much nicer place if everyone could do that.

Luckily I married an awesome dude and have incredibly awesome little dudes and read very interesting and insightful posts by awesome people.

& oh yeah . . . music:

Antigone Rising, From the Ground Up

Chosen today for the name, this band rocks in an acoustic way.

Highlights: "Waiting, Watching, Wishing," "Open Hearts and Doors," "She Lived Here," & "Broken."

be cool